i plan on removing my old 550 in ground heating oil tank and installing a basic 275 horizontal tank in the basement. are all tanks, warranties,fittings lines etc. generic basic items or are there specific manufactures that make a better product. granby is a name i see appearing a lot. the plumber i plan to use said any tank that is UL listed is adequate, and that doubled walled tanks or containment tubs would be overkill.
thanks in advance for the advice
Double wall or secondary containment is not overkill if the tank leaks for any reason. Are you feeling lucky?
Yes you are taking a chance.I replaced and put in a fairshare of tanks and kind of agree with your plumber.Get the thickest walled tank.Must leaks are at the joints and where the piping and tank meet if not careful.
No way would I move the tank inside!!!
Hi airman,here abouts the vast % are done inside because of cold oil and frozen lines.The ones that are not can keep you out allnight.Snowing here now and got about 5 this morning and overnite.Just done that way.
I would definitely get some kind of containment setup. I would think it's rare for a tank to start gushing open one day, but slow leaks can turn to a lot of oil if it's not noticed immediately. Some kind of pan or double-wall tank that will let you know when there's a leak that needs to be fixed or replaced.
Whether you agree with it or not, any kind of home oil remediation is huge $$$.
If freezing is an issue id put it in the ground
No way, no how, would I put a tank in the ground even if I could get a permit to do so.
Granby makes a double bottom tank if you want some extra protection. There are also pans made especially for use under an oil tank. If you are really parnoid, there are also oil detection systems you can install in the pan.
i wouldn't even dream of putting it in the ground again. the current tank is a 550 in ground installed in 1957 and i wont be fully relaxed until its gone. should remediation be needed i might as well put the house on the market, i know it's huge $$$$ and as an added bonus the state gets involved.
based on all you guys experience whats the likelihood on average that the tank has some small leak? i don't notice anything in the way of oil loss or water in the oil.
as far as secondary containment goes it seems your general consensus is to have it. whats the better way, double walled or basin?
How much room do you have for the tank? Finished basement? Roth makes a fiberglass tank with metal containment BUT there are some posts in the boiler section about poor install and leaks and worthless warranty. Smaller footprint though so maybe an option. I'm sure somebody makes a vertical one also but no clue on price. Like other thread...Craigslist.
My friend bought a used boiler for a couple hundred $$ and the guy was almost ready to pay him to take his 2 year old tanks but no need for my friend.
In VA any old tanks and spills are taken care of by the state. Im not a fan of them being in the house. Id rather see them buried.
ask NJTROOPER how he feels about inground tanks in NJ.............
http://s224.beta.photobucket.com/use...nk Remediation
As far as secondary containment goes, I prefer the basin. The reason for this is nobody pays attention to the warning devices on double wall tanks at least after the tank has been installed a while whereas with a basin you can install an audible alarm or at the very least, you would smell the oil in the basin. I have never seen a catastrophic tank failure on a residential tank.
Trying to predict the chances of a tank having a small leak is a real guessing game. There are just too many variables. Around here most tanks are abandoned in place, meaning they are pumped out then either filled with sand or just the pipes removed the tank plugged. There are a couple of companies around who can fill them with some kind of foam. The foam option is usually only done if getting to the tank would involve major demolition such as tearing down a garage or house addition built over a burried tank.
based on my research so far it seems nobody puts too much thought into oil tanks. even experienced plumbers i have spoken to say for a basic 275 basement install they just get whatever the local supply house has in stock providing its UL rated. the local plumbing supply places i have called just stock basic single walled tanks.
i have a nice discrete corner where a basic 275 would fit nicely. the decision i need to make is whether to get single walled basic or double? tomorrow i will call granby to get info on their double walled tank. perhaps i am over-thinking this too much, as Grady stated i know a catastrophic failure would be unusual. i need to make a decision ASAP before the in ground tank runs too low and ill be forced to get another minimum delivery.
i am leaning towards the basic single walled with an alarm perhaps?
thanks
I think the single wall with a pan with or without the alarm is a good move.
thanks grady
i called granby and it seems that the 275 gallon double bottom tank is about 40% more than the single walled standard. as far as the basin goes is there one available that's not so obtrusive? i saw a picture of one that's as big as a bathtub?
Here's some tank pans, trays, alarms.
Oil Tank Pans | Trays | Alarms
Oil Storage Solutions - Custom oil tank covers and fuel oil containment products
I prefer the style in which the tank legs sit in the pan. You have to be sure to put something under the legs to prevent the ends from cutting thru the pan. I have seen some pans that come with steel discs for that purpose.
Thanks for the links
I suppose i will go with a basic single wall 12ga 275 tank
As i mentioned earlier it seems that even commercial supply houses dont get involved in specific details on tanks, looks like they mostly stock the basic single walls, i could not find one in my area that had a double wall granby in stock.
As far as brands are there any other brands besides granby and are they all equil in quality or is there one brand in particular i should stay away from?
Anything other than a standard single wall is going to be hard to find other than special order. I've used both Granby Highland for years. No problem with either one. Just make sure the tank is UL listed. Either UL 80 or UL 142 are the standards for oil tanks.
thanks grady
ill go with the 275 standard and one of those simple unobtrusive slip under pans you sent the link to. code here is 12ga is that sufficient or any reason i might want to go up to 10ga?
thanks
I seriously doubt you can even find a 275 in 10ga. If you did, I certainly wouldn't want the job of getting it in a basement. Talk about a beast.
the installation on a 275 gallon heating oil tank in the basement started but its not yet complete. as every professional has a technique thats a bit different i had a few questions concerning the installers methods.
1)concerning the fill pipe
the length of the pipes from the tank to the house exit is appx 5 feet.
how much should the fill pipe be pitched? of the two pipes installed but yet to be designated one is pitched about 1/2 in 5 feet and the other about 1 in 5 feet.
also how should the little 45deg. fill elbow with cap be positioned? can it be attached directly to the horizontal end of the 5' long fill pipe or should a short vertical rise/nipple be attached first.
the technician plans to make the fill pipe higher than the vent pipe, that will put the fill at about 48 seems a bit too high for me.
2)the 12 gauge single walled tank is slightly pitched towards the bottom valve, the level vial is slightly cracked, i assume this is enough??
3)in a prior post several respondents mentioned the use of swing joints to alleviate settling upon fill. here they were not used but are not code. are these critical?
4)the burner is currently set up with two lines a feed and return, should the new tank be piped the same way or is the return not needed? why do some burners have a return and others not?
i definitely want to be present for the first filling
the installer works under a licensed plumber and seems qualified however there are still variations between a professional who does 3 tanks a month and one who does 3 a year, which is why a ask for your opinions. that said i have a tendency to over analyze everything
if there are any critical points i need to be aware of please let me know.
thank you
You should have about 1/4 pitch per foot of pipe for both pipes. The 1 in 5 feet is ok but the other one needs more pitch. In a pinch, it would be ok for the vent.
The 45 is ok directly on the horizontal as long as the horizontal extends 3-4 from the side of the house.
Four feet off the ground is too high for a fill. Waist high is PLENTY unless you get massive amounts of snow against the house in that area.
When installing a tank, I use legs 1 longer on the end away from the tank outlet than the other end.
The level vial is cracked??????
On a steel tank, swing joints are not needed unless the tank is going on a dirt floor.
I will NOT install a tank with a return from the burner. If you feed off the top, a Tiger Loop is FAR preferable to having a return line.
Tigerloop
Thanks
My knowledge is limited concerning the dynamics of having a return or no return, pros/cons ?? When the boiler was installed 15 yrs ago they used the same existing lines and configuration, so the return was always there. Now their plan is to feed from the valve at the bottom and return rhrough one of the openings on top with a deep tube so prime is not lost.
The level vial is cracked meaning it is tilted ever so slightly towards the feed side
On the fill if the 1 in 5ft sloped pipe is ok will it be acceptable to 90elbow up with say a 3 or 4 nipple than attach the 45 fill just to get more gravity behind it or is the 45 fill at the end of the pipe good enough to not have fill issues?
The reason you don't want a return line is: With a two pipe system (one having a return line) you are pumping at around 17 gallons per hour whereas with a single line, you are only pumping the amount you are burning. The slower flow rate allows the fuel filter to do a far better job of filtering. In addition, there's no chance of having the return line fail pumping oil all over the basement. If you do decide to come off the bottom, there should be an oil safety valve installed.
Oil Safety Valve
http://www.websterfuelpumps.com/pdffiles/osv1.pdf
You'll notice I listed several cons no pros. That's because there are none in my opinion. The ONLY pro is if you happen to get air in the fuel system, you won't have to manually bleed the pump. This can be overcome with the installation of a Tigerloop.
Make sure the copper they install between the tank pump is plastic covered if it comes in contact with any concrete.
You can use a nippe then the 45 if you so desire. I normally come out of the house 6 or so then install a 90 nipple for filling. Just make sure there are at least a couple of inches between the house the fill cap. The length of the verticle nipple depends upon how high I want the fill. Normally a 12 nipple is plenty.
No problem with the gauge vial being slightly tilted.
Thanks for the info grady
The tank is in just waiting on filling as i need to present.
You guys have given me some good education on the whole return line thing.
The plumber has all ready run the return line and will make the connection after the fill is complete. My plan is to call the oil company after the tank is hooked up and running and have them send one of their technicians who is knowledgeable and who i can trust and have them assess the configuration and possibly rework the lines into a one line system. (some of these guys are only qualified to change filters and clean based on my past experiences) i will also be asking them about the safety valve, is webster one of the better ones or are the all of equil quality?
As mentioned the new tank feeds from the bottom, is about 6 feet from the burner feed. The bottom feed from the tank is at an elevation just a few inches below the burner inlet elevation, does this slight differecne matter or must the inlet on the burner be below the tank outlet?
Just curious? If there is no real advantage to a return line Why was the old system configured with a return line? The old system was a 550 inground tank. In the case of an older larger inground tank does the return become a positive??
Thanks
I know exactly what you are talking about when it comes to technicians. Some are true technicians while others, with the same title, are far from earning said title. This is true in every trade.
As far as I know, there are only two manufacturers of the safety vavles, Webster Suntec. I don't believe there is a significant difference in the two.
Regarding the tank outlet burner inlet elevations; as long as the level of the oil in the tank is above the burner inlet the bunrer will be gravity fed.
When your old tank was put in, Tigerloops probably didn't exist. Even if they did, few people, even today, use them. This is due partially because they don't know, partially because of cost, a few are afraid of technology.
Thanks
I forgot to ask....
I was looking to run the old 550 inground to absolute minimum before hooking up the new tank. On an old tank of this type typically how many inches of oil would represente absolute minimum
Would it still be advisable to convert to the one line system without a tigerloop?
Normally the suction line is anywhere from 2-6 off the bottom on an underground tank.
With a bottom feed, you don't need the Tigerloop. Simply disconnect the return line, remove the by-pass plug from the pump, install a 1/4 pipe plug where the return line fitting was in the pump. Five minute job.
my 550 in ground feeds 8 off the bottom. I know this as that's where I ran out of oil. That left 60 gallons in the tank I can't use.
Are they pumping the old out for you? Could be a bunch of sludge to be filtered if they do. My friend just pumped out a tank with harbor freight pump that looks like a gas nozzle. He filtered all of it through a very fine micron filter to catch all the crap.
The family property he was at is going to foreclosure. All copper has been stolen since no one there. The tank WAS full with 275gallons
one thing i learned from this project after all of my questions and research is to NEVER take oil from an old tank and put it into a new tank. the bacteria it brings along from the old tank will help to promote sludge buildup in the new tank.
also is the harbor freight pump manual or electric?
i thought any type of pump that deals with oil had to be a certain type of spark preventive pump?
You learned well. Any electric pump used to pump flamable (such as gasoline) or combustable (such as fuel oil) should have an explosion proof motor. Notice I said should. For fuel oil you can USUALLY get away without an explosion proof. You a gambler?
Tags: gallon, basement, tank, return line, fill pipe, from tank, single walled, basic single, having return, line system, about feet, burner inlet
